E10 petrol and our MGs

[Ian F]

I have a question and would like some views on what you are doing (if anything?) about the perceived issues around ethanol in petrol.

I do understand all of the concerns about ethanol so I'm not asking for information specifically, but wanted to know about any actions anyone is taking or planning to take. I currently use Shell V Power in my MGs, which I understand contains 5% ethanol, but there are moves afoot to establish E10 (10% ethanol) across the board. I believe most ordinary unleaded (95 octane) already contains 10% ethanol.

I was prompted to think about this by the news item regarding a biofuel plant in Hull, producing ethanol, which has been mothballed for the time being as the UK Government is being a little slow in implementing the E10 guidance.

So - anyone doing anything about ethanol, and anyone already had problems with their MGBs through use of E5 or E10 petrol?

Ian F

[Peter Cresswell]

This is not yet the problem it might become, and far I am aware until 2019 E5 is the norm in the UK and E10 is something of a rarity, but the % is the maximum allowed to be added, and often it is considerably less and also dependent on the time of year. When in France last summer there was E80 being sold. To be avoided like the plague!

The biggest problem with E10 is the ethanol content is high enough for it to become corrosive to some of the parts in the fuel system, in particular rubber and aluminium. It also forms a sticky gel if left unused for a long period of time. So items like carburettors, pump diaphragms, and flexible hoses can all be attacked. It is not only classic vehicles that have problems but also cars made before about 10 years ago. So what can be done?
1. If the flexible fuel lines haven't been replaced in the last 5 or so years, replace them now. If they have never been replaced this is even more urgent and even unleaded fuel with no ethanol rots the rubber hoses. If you take off the top of the fuel bowl on the carbs and there are specs of black in the bottom of the bowl, these are bits from the inside of the hoses. E10 flexible hoses are available either by the metre or as a kit.
2. the same goes for the fuel pump itself. I recently changed the pump on my MGB and found the label on the old one said it was 'Made in Birmingham', so probably the original. A pump bought today will be E10 compliant.
3. The main part in the carburettor likely to have a problem is needle valve. A change to Viton tipped type helps. The best way though to protect the carbs if the car is going to be unused for a lengthy period of time is to disconnect the electrical supply to the pump, then run the engine until it stops. Then there will be not fuel in the carbs to cause a problem.
3. Materials used in old gaskets and some seals are also not compatible with E10 so again changing to a modern gasket overcomes the problem. A carb overhaul kit will have the various parts that are compatible.
4. If you have repaired the fuel tank with one of the solutions put into the tank then sloshed about to line the inside, this will be dissolved by the ethanol in the fuel and cause serious problems in the fuel system.

E10 is more volatile than previous fuels, so underbonnet heat causes evaporation in the fuel lines, particularly when stuck in traffic, or when the engines is switched of for a short period you might find it takes longer than expected to restart. It is vital that the heat shield between the exhaust manifold and the carbs and also the insulation blocks between the carb and inlet manifold are all in place. The engine will also run hotter so ensuring the cooling system is in good condition is vital. Again it is best to change that old radiator for a new one, and I have found the Moss radiator duct to be particularly effective even though it is a bit of a fiddle to fit (there is only a small clearance between the tips of the fan and the duct of the cowl) and is quite expensive. It is cheaper than an electric fan though.

There are additive to negate the effects of ethanol. The seem to cost around £12 for a 250ml bottle (enough for 4 to 5 tank fulls).
For much more information and details of some the research that has been done see
http://fbhvc.co.uk/legislation-and-fuel ... formation/

[Paul Hollingworth]

There was a very good report commissioned by the Department of Transport and carried out by QINETIQ. (a privatised arm of the MOD)
It contains a table which shows which materials are compatible with ethanol in fuel. Of metals it says that zinc, brass , copper, aluminium and magnesium are incompatible. Also polyurethane and nitrile rubber. The report can be read in full here :-

http://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgccmidlandce ... 0FINAL.PDF

This may be what has prevented E10 being introduced in the UK. It seems a little at odds with the thesis from Oxford Brookes University quoted by the FHBVC which found no vulnerability for brass, although the tests may have been a little flawed.
Personally I have found the float chamber valves on my MGB are more prone to leaking despite having PTFE tipped needles, although I've had no problem yet with fuel hoses. Going to change them just in case.

[alan riley]

I know this is an old thread, but I have been researching ethanol- I can find only BP optimax and Esso synergy saying they have no ethanol. Shell (whatever the more expensive higher octane one is called) has 5% ethanol. I sent an email query " Does BP Ultimate petrol contain ethanol?" to BP to check if this is still current and I received this reply yesterday:

Dear Alan,

Thank you for your enquiry about BP Ultimate Unleaded with ACTIVE technology, and apologies for the delay in replying.

Fuel suppliers have been required to increase the quantity of biofuels in their transport fuels since 2008 to comply with the government’s Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation; as a result bioethanol has been added to petrol products in the UK since that time. Today, bioethanol is present in nearly all regular unleaded 95 octane petrols being sold by fuel suppliers in the UK and can also be present in the UK’s higher octane petrols.

The inclusion of bioethanol in our supply chain is subject to regulatory and commercial influences and regrettably we cannot give you categorical assurances as to its absence or presence in BP petrol products at specific locations. But we can confirm that currently BP Ultimate Unleaded does not contain more than 5% bioethanol.

Kind regards
UK Communications Team

So BP does contain ethanol.....probably!
Esso say their super-dooper (ie expensive higher octane) petrol contains NO ethanol but I have my doubts. Although my B does seem to run better and cooler with Esso Synergy and Valvemaster.

[Bourne]

Hello all,

Given the news today, I thought I would reopen this old thread on E10 fuel. The Government has begun a consultation on requiring petrol stations to provide petrol with a 10 percent ethanol content. The Dept for Transport Consultation on E10 fuel can be accessed here: https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... e10-petrol

Key points are as follows:
- E10 Fuel will be introduced as the standard unleaded fuel from Summer 2021
- E5 Fuel will remain available as the Premium (super octane) option until at least 2026 (when the relevant regulation would be up for review)
- Specialist suppliers and petrol stations in remote areas will be exempted from the requirement to sell E10

Reading between the lines, the decision to retain E5 as a premium option is mainly for the drivers of the 200,000 “everyday drivers” incompatible with E10 that the Government expects to be on the road in mid-2020. Given that is half the number of incompatible cars being driven on the roads in 2019, it’s clear the government expects the number of incomparable cars to be negligible by 2026 - at which point they may decide to phase out E5 entirely.

The consultation ends on April 19 if you are minded to respond.

[frank burch]

I have had to replace flexible pipe to carburettor ,started to leak.Are there any other flexible pipes/seals in fuel system from tank to engine that might also fail.? I am new to this forum but have owned my car since 1992.thanks.

[George Wilder]

Yes
If you still have the original fuel pump or similar set up, the pipe from pump to the fuel line under the car is a flexible type.
Not just the pipe needed but the two fibre washers for the banjo fitting of the pipe to the pump.
If the pump is old is well worth considering changingthat too for a modern ethenol proof pump.
Also worth considering changing the needle valves in the float bowl on the SUs for the latest type too.

See the relevent sections here
https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-m ... s-fittings

[Peter Cresswell]

George has covered most of the areas in his reply above, but I would add to that list the steel fuel lines from the tank to the pump and from the rear bulkhead to the front bulkhead. These rot from the inside out which is caused by moisture the ethanol has absorbed from the atmosphere. The same can be said for the fuel tank, which gives another problem if the inside has been treated with a sealant. The ethanol will dissolve this. The steel pipes can be replaced with copper ones but they are supplied coiled up and the rear one (tank to pump) can be especially difficult to shape to fit. They are the correct length though (or least the ones I bought were!).
You will know the ethanol content of the fuel as all pumps in the UK now have a label on them showing E5, E10 or E85 where the number is the percentage of ethanol in the fuel. This now applied to the Esso Synergy and BP Ultimate which an earlier post suggested had no ethanol in them. So at present, E5 seems to be the norm across the board but look out for the change now it has been announced. The MGB does seem to run better on Super Unleaded and if that stays at E5 for some time yet then we don't have too much to worry about, other than the engine will run a little hotter and you need to have a heat shield fitted under the carbs to prevent fuel evaporation when idling.
As I see it the main threat will come from the Green Lobby who will want us to go to E85 sooner than we may think, and although electronic fuel injected cars can cope (it is widespread in France), carburettors are unlikely to do so. Also as demand for petrol (and Diesel) falls due to the rise in electric cars then prices will surely rise.
I did write much more on this subject, which you will find a few posts above this one.

[Paul Heffernan]

All this talk of rotting inards on our fuel systems along with the inevitable huge price rises, what's the view on possible LPG convertions? Is it, or could it become practical/viable?

[Ian F]

On a different tack to this issue, what does anyone know about the methanol fuelled competition cars which have been around for many years?
I am fairly certain these old cars were not fuel injected? Would be very interesting to know more about them.
They were easily recognisable at competition meetings because they were obliged to have a sticker prominently displayed (can't recollect exactly what - perhaps a blue circle?). This was because when methanol burns the flame is practically invisible - very dangerous.

I am assuming methanol and ethanol would behave in a similar manner regarding problems with components etc. They are certainly very similar in chemical composition.

Ian F